Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Pre Tribulation Pre Millenium

For the greater part of my life ever since I was sunday school student in an AOG church back in the sixties and later in the Ceylon Pentecostal church I was always accustomed to listen to sermons on the comming of the Lord and how important it was for us to get prepared for the rapture so as to escape the tribulation that was soon to come. I believe this was the belief of the early church followers as well, and the soon coming of the Lord proved to be the catalyst that drove the early church to spread the gospel with an urgency. Jesus too warns us in Mathew 24: 37-39 that the tribulation period was going to come and overtake the world like the floods that came during the time of Noah. Jesus then gives us a picture of the rapture in Mathew 24:40-42 about two people being in the field and at the mill and one will be taken and the other left. This tells us that the rapture which Paul again mentions in I Thessalonians 4:16-18 will be for a select few and its a prelude to the tribulation. Hence I believe as the early church fathers believed that Jesus is coming soon to take away his bride the church before the tribulation .

Jesus will make his presence known to the world during the tribulation when he comes and destroys the anti christ and his armies and sets up the millenium Kingdom for a thousand years.
It his during the millenial reign of Christ that the prophecies of the old testament prophets will come true who spoke about Jesus coming to sit on the throne of David and reign from Jerusalem
The book of Revelation 20:4-6 tells us that Jesus will come again to the earth together with the saints who were raptured and rule the earth for a thousand years. It will an unprecedented era like never before, where peace and righteouness reigns and and the lion and the lamb dwell together, it will be a reflection of the garden of Eden. I am looking forward to escape the tribulation and meet Jesus in the clouds and return back as a VIP to take my place in the
parliament of the millenium where Jesus will be the Prime Minister and me maybe the minister of Home affairs and I will make sure there wont be any ISA.

23 comments:

Joe Iyathurai said...

dear brother, you seem to be pro to your subject, than can you share your view on 'post tribulation millenial'. GB

jeromeliew said...

Thanks Bro,
I agreed with your stand about the pre tribulation for those who didn't accept Jesus and Satan and co. will go through the suffering.
Towards the end of your post, I'm wondering whether the comment you made about the Parliament stuff link to your topic being discussed.

Freddie Ong said...

Hi Raymund,
Thanks for your sharing. If I understand correectly, you were saying that according to Rev.20:4-6, Christ would come again after the after the millennium's reign. Are you saying there will be two resurrection? Could you elaborate on that third coming? Thanks.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Bro. Freedie
If you read my post correctly and Revelation 20:4-6 there is no third coming of Christ only the second coming. Also during the rapture of which I spoke about Jesus does not come physically to walk on earth he only comes in the clouds to take his bride away.Only during the tribulation will Christ come the second time to defeat the anti-christ and set up his millenial Kingdom.Yes there will be three resurrections though. First will be the resurrection of the righteous dead second the resurrection of the saints who died during the tribulation and third the resurrection of sinners at the end of the millenium.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Bro Joe,
I don't believe in Post Tribulation neither do the Assemblies of God and most Pentecostal denominations.Post tribulation actually means that Jesus will only come after the tribulation and we all have to go thru the tribulation. It goes contrary to all what Jesus and the apostles have warned us to get ready for the rapture and escape the wrath of the anti-christ.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Bro. Jerome,
My comment stands when Jesus our King is heading the government during the millenium you and I are in for a promotion. Don't expect to be a maid during the millenium if you've been a servant of Jesus during your earthly life then in the millenium you can look forward to a better position.

Joe Iyathurai said...

dear raymond, can clarify your statement of the warning from Jesus and apostles with regards to rapture and wrath of anti-christ and does this gives us clear understanding of the subject matter that has been discussed by us. GB

ndru_c said...

To Raymond... Thanks for your comments. I think they are rather straight forward. I share that kind of belief too ever since I became a Christian. The idea is that Jesus can come at any moment and all Christians will be taken away before the tribulation began. Some said this is an escape mentality..!? As time goes by, I began to question whether all Christians are going to be 'snatched' away or only a selected group who are truly committed to the Lord. I have also changed my belief in regards to Jesus can come back at any given 'seconds' now! Not so anymore. Today I believe that there is a given season to Christ's return though we may not know the exact time. And He is coming back for a victorious, glorious church and not a weak church, be it true that He is coming back for a Bride without spot and wrinkle. In the meantime, the church had missions to be accomplished in the earth, which is why we can actually hasten His coming, in one sense...

Jonathan Tan said...

Hi, Raymond, It is so nice to think that the Lord will rapture us just before the great tribulation. But listen to this in Matt. 24:9 in NKJV:“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake." and then the Lord comforts us in verse 13: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." This really overthrow the view of the Pre-tribulation position.
Hi, Joe, he is supposed to blog about the Pre-Trib., let others brief you on the post-trib okay!
Weel said, NDRU,Are you still a believer in the pre-tribulation view?

Eunicelaw said...

Dear Bro,
Do you think we are now living in pre tribulation?

Eunicelaw said...

Dear Bro,
Do you think we are now living in pre tribulation?

Jonathan Tan said...

Dear brother Raymond, Just because AG believes in the Pretribulation Premillennium, does it make it right or we have to look into the Bible hard and find the answers for ourselves. Does the Bible really support this view or you are just following tradition?

Freddie Ong said...

Hi Raymund,
Thanks for your reply. On the 'third coming of Christ', you are right. it is not stated in your article. This actually is a term used by some people to differentiate the period of Christ appearances; 1st - 2000years ago at Bethlehem; 2nd - His return before to inaugurate the millennium period; of course 3rd - the Final Judgment with the establishing of a new heaven and earth. You also correct in mentioning that 3 resurrections as based on your pre-trib and pre-millennium view. Just for curiosity, I have a question to ask. You stated lion and lamb dwell together, a reflection of garden of Eden. Are you referring it as metaphorical or animals do go to heaven?

DonnyTanTW said...

Hi Bro Raymond!
I am interested to know why you hold on so faithfully to the pre-trib pre-mil stand, because like you, I also grew up in an AOG church, but is there are any other reasons why we should?

I think brother Jonathan brought up a very interesting issue in Matt 24. How would you explain that in a way to support your pre-trib view?

ndru_c said...

To Jonathan... Well, it is said that one of the hardest thing to do is to unlearn what we have learned. My resolve is that 'I will' abandon tradition for a more accurate position. In regards to your question, well, I would say I am still in the process of doing a more critical analysis on the matter..

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Johnathan,
You better believe we have a nice and loving God who wants to save us from all life's troubles and especially from the great tribulation. You,ve using Matthew 24:9 to disprove the rapture but this portion of scripture that tells us that we will be afflicted,killed and hated by all nations generally sums up the plight of Christians down thru the long centuries of christian history.When Jesus spoke these words he was looking into the future thru 2000 years into out time and generation.About forty years after Jesus spoke these words the tribulation had begun for the Church.Christians were burned alive and thrown into the lions den,many endured to the end without giving up the faith,Hebrews 11:35-38.Please read 'The Foxxes Book of Matyrs'and you will know that being afflicted,killed and hated was the common plight of Christians throughout church history in fact all the apostles were matyred except for John. But Matthew 24: 21 lets us know that there is going to come a tribulation that was never like it since time began on earth,and the generation that sees the gospel preached to the ends of the earth will be the one to see it come.This generation is the one you and I are living at this moment.Matthew 24 : 38 -42, goes on to say that this tribulation is going to come so suddenly like the floods that came in Noah's time,and there are some people who are going to be taken away by the coming of the Lord from this tribulation.Paul substantiates this in I Thessalonians 4:16-17,where he tells us about being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds.In has always been the practice of God to save his people from impending disaster,he saved the household of Noah during the flood,he sent the angels and saved Lot from the fires that destroyed Sodom,he sent an east wind and opened up the Red sea and saved the children of Israel from the wrath of the Egyptians,and he will come in the Mid air to take you and me away from the great tribulation.Why does God want to save us from the tribulation. The time of tribualation actually signifies the end of the period of GRACE and the working of the Holy Sprit on earth. Please read II Thessalonians 2:7-8 ,here it says that the Holy Spirit will resist the spirit of iniquity till he be taken away and that will happen at the rapture when the Church of Jesus Christ will be taken away.Of course there will be Christians who will have to go thru the tribulation but they will be the ones who like Lots wife who could not resist the temptation to set their affections on earthly things rather than on things heavenly and eternal and only thay will have the privilege of going thru the tribulation and dying as Matyrs.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Joe and Dear Dohnie,
Please see my reply to Johnathan and that might answer your concerns in regards to the rapture.

Thanks.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Eunice,
I definetly believe the great tribulation that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:21 has not come.Therefore we are living in pre-tribulation times.Please read my reply to Johnathan and you might get a clearer insight.

Thanks

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Freedie,
I do believe animals will go to heaven not because their sins are washed by the blood of Jesus,but because in the garden of Eden when the glory of God covered the earth there were animals dwelling with man and also Isaiah 11:6-7 substantiates this.

DonnyTanTW said...

Wow! Thanks for your lengthy and detailed explanation! I guess you're right that the scripture passages used are to describe our present day persecution (not that WE are facing it, but the church in general la) and not describing the tribulation. Thank you, I shall hold on to the AOG stand for now because my hope in it is strengthened. Haha! God bless!

Raymond Marsden said...

Thanks Dohnnie,
Hope to meet you in the clouds when Jesus comes.

jeromeliew said...

Hi Bro,
Your reply in kinda encouraging I,m looking forward to the coming of Christ and rule together with him and be eternity in heaven.
However, doesn't that your view on pre-tribulation means that we got to suffer now till the coming of Christ?
thanks.

Raymond Marsden said...

Dear Jeromeliew,
Yes I believe as Christians we need to undergo a certain amount of suffering one of which is like doing our assignments till the early hours of the morning but the greater part of the suffering is confronting the trials and tribulations thrown at us by the devil so as to stop us from making it at the rapture.